Lots of sirens now.
I'm in the Emek Refaim area of Jerusalem.
Nothing on the radio yet. But sirens from every direction.
11 minutes ago
Friends,These are good questions. The messages on the ISM mailing list agonize daily over Palestinian suffering (both real and otherwise) but made no mention at all of the Jerusalem bombing. The ISM's "actions" interfere with the IDF's operations against terrorists, which leaves the impression that the internationals tacitly support such actions. So I look forward to hear Arraf's responses to these questions even as she sneers at them.
After the August 19 bus bombing in Jerusalem, the ISM received a number of emails asking if the ISM was going to make a statement and we received some of the usual, "why isn't the ISM riding Israeli busses?" comments. One email suggested that if we don't speak out against this bombing, we are "party to it".
Hmm. "Blaming it on The Occupation". But she's supposed to make a ritual condemnation first .. You know, like, "We condemn these attacks, but ..."
Again our response is that we are working to stop all violence in the region, not by issuing statements, but by working to end the root cause of the violence against Israelis and Palestinians - the ongoing, brutal Israeli occupation of Palestinian land and lives ......
In the few short weeks after the hudna was announced on June 29, 2003, up until August 9, 10 days before the bus bombing in Jerusalem, the Israeli military killed 10 Palestinians, 5 of them children, wounded 348 Palestinians, 65 of them children, arrested 435 Palestinians, damaged or completely demolished/destroyed 211 Palestinian homes, and uprooted or destroyed over 10,050 Palestinian fruit and olive trees. This is not to mention the vehicles and businesses damaged and/or destroyed, the thousands of dunams of Palestinian land confiscated or isolated from its owners, the number of new settlement structures that were built, the bypass roads created, the Israeli military outposts erected, the continued work on the apartheid wall, the continued denial of access to Palestinians to their land, and the ongoing daily abuse at checkpointsCBBTFTP = "Can''t be bothered to fisk that part....
We are not going to issue statements.She said that already, but OK.
We stand against the killing of all civilians and are saddened for the families of the victims of that bus bombing.If Arraf had said "We stand against the killing of civilians under all circumstances", I would understand her to be expressing an objection (and taking a moral stand) against the Islamikazes. But she's taking pains to say that she's not "making a statement", so I can only understand her to be saying that the ISM opposes killing civilians "in principle" - the same way that she's for peace on earth.
At the same time we're frustrated with the politics of governments and the complacency that is allowing this to continue. Without a check on the Israeli government and military, this will continue. There can be no hudna or "road map" without restraints put on the Israeli military and government.I thought you just said that you guys weren't going to issue statements. To me this sure sounds like a statement to the effect that the ISM thinks that the suicide bombings should continue until "The Occupation" ends.
#1
Is it not at least somewhat rational to correlate the Hamas bombing with the killing of the Hamas activists last week? The IDF is feeding the same line they did after the bombing following the attempted Rantisi asassination. That the bombings were planned in advance and were not a result of the asassinations.
ernzy
#2
To Ernzy,
"somewhat rational"? The answer to your question is "yes".
But Israel has mostly sat idly while the PA (in open breach of their "roadmap" commitments" blah blah) permits Hamas etc. to pursue rearming/regrouping/missile testing in many places.
If after several weeks of doing nothing the IDF determined that one facility in Nablus must be eliminated, who is "responsible" for the breaking of the "hudna"?
It's a bit surreal that we're discussing it in terms of "who started it?". ie. since attacks on civilians are supposed to be crimes against humanity etc.
Also I think it's pretty well established that the post-Rantisi bombing was planned in advance.
Tal G.
#5
I was not referring to previous attacks. All attacks against civilians are despicable IMO.
Tal, I think it is a bit disingenuous to say the IDF has "done nothing" or "sat idly" until last week. It is well documented that about as many people have been arrested as were let go in the prisoner releases.
And while it is plainly stipulated in the roadmap that the PA disassemble the "terrorist infrastructure" we all know that a full assault against Hamas et. al will do more damage to Palestinian society and in effect Israeli society than benefit it. Speaking of which, the roadmap also clearly states that Israel cease form all settlement building immediately which it has not .. so let's be fair about this. Both sides, for a change, are doing as little as possible while demanding the world from the other side.
ernzy
#6
Aug 12 2003, 03:50 pm
>Tal, I think it is a bit disingenuous to say the IDF has "done nothing" or "sat idly" until last week. It is well documented that about as many
>people have been arrested as were let go in the prisoner releases.
The arrests were AFAIK not attempts to seriously damage the infrastructure of the "militant groups" (I can use sneer quotes myself). In at least some instances the arrests were to prevent planned attacks (and hence strengthened the "hudna").
>And while it is plainly stipulated in the roadmap that the PA disassemble the "terrorist infrastructure" we all know that a full assault against
>Hamas et. al will do more damage to Palestinian society and in effect Israeli society than benefit it.
That's the view more associated with the Clinton/EU approach to things than the "Bush speech July[?] 2002" approach. Those (like yourself) who keep saying "withdrawal first, peace later" need to address the quite justifiable question of the average Israeli:: "when is 'later'?"
The usual or implied answer to this question is always "after there's peace", which is a kind of circular answer. To mention "taking risks for peace" reminds Israelis of Clinton (and Arafat). The view that national rights are unconditional is popular only when applied to Palestinians. Noone advocates regional destabilization as a necessary price for Kurdish, Chechen, or Kashmir national rights.
> Speaking of which, the roadmap also
>clearly states that Israel cease form all settlement building immediately which it has not .. so let's be fair about this.
I've talked about the outposts issue below. Is there still any construction or expansion of Efrat, Ariel etc. going on? I don't think so. Granted that the decision to build 22 units inside the existing perimeter of a Gaza settlement (don't remember which one) was defended by a tortured reading of the "roadmap" clause. But the Palestinians (and hence the world) are much more concerned about prisoner releases and the security fence.
>Both sides, for a change, are doing as little as possible while demanding the world from the other side.
I disagree. Very significant Israeli actions include: IDF withdrawals from Gaza and Bethlehem, transfer of tax revenue, limitation of operations against "militant" infrastructure. Significant Palestinian actions include a serious reduction in the amount of anti-Israel incitement in the media.
Tal G
1. Israel will be widely blamed for provoking today's Islamikaze attacks
2. There will be intense pressure on Israel not to respond to the attacks combined with familiar calls on the PA to take action against Fatah, et. al. The latter will be ignored.
3. There will be another plan, with a name of its own, intended to resurrect and strengthen the hudna and roadmap
Outposts generally begin as a dirt road to a single cargo container, cell phone antenna or water tower. Then houses are erected, but infrastructure typically remains rudimentary for the first residents. It is only when such additions as a community center, nursery school, playground area or paved roads emerge that an outpost begins to take on the characteristics of a settlement, though some settlement opponents consider any outpost with people living in it to be a settlement.
Neither Israel nor the Palestinians can carry out all the terms of the road map peace plan, due to political constraints on both sides, Interior Minister Avraham Poraz told the Foreign Press Association yesterday.
PRISONS SERVICE
A Security Organization with a Social Purpose
Notice regarding release of Palestinian prisoners who are residents of the Judea/Samaria [ie. West Bank] and Gaza regions
In the process of the negotiations with the Palestinian Authority the government has decided to release Palestinian prisoners and administrative detainees. Below is the list of those who are marked for release.
The list includes the name of the prisoner, ID number, sentence, chapter under which he was sentenced, court case number, name of the court, and date that he would be released were it not for the reduced sentence. Additionally, the list contains the names of administrative detainees who are marked for release.
It is to be emphasized that this list does not include any prisoner or detainee with "blood on his hands" and that release of prisoners and detainees is conditional upon their signing a form of obligation not to return to violent activity in the future.
[phone numbers for further information]
Attorney Hayim Shmuelivitz
"Tat-gunder"
Legal adviser to the Prisons Service
The figure includes 183 inmates convicted of activities ranging from stone-throwing to membership of "terrorist organisations", and 139 "administrative detainees" held, without charge, on security grounds
Israel has said it will not release those involved in attacks on Israelis, although it has agreed to free 210 Islamic militants who were involved in political activity."political activity"?!? According to the Associated Press :
Israel has agreed to free only a few hundred, and has said it will not release prisoners directly involved in violent attacks.Note those two words "the majority"...
The majority of those being released were convicted of stone throwing, membership in an illegal organization or harboring fugitives...
Despite the ministerial committee's decision that no prisoner with "blood on his hands" would be released, some of those slated to be freed on Wednesday were convicted of participating in attempted terror attacks, shooting attacks, planting explosives devices and throwing grenades or Molotov cocktails.
Opponents of ISM claim that the movement's goal is to impede the army's job in stopping terrorism and even act as an accomplice to terrorist activities. Does anyone honestly believe that thousands
of volunteers from Tel Aviv to New York City, many Jewish,"from Seattle to San Francisco" would be more accurate
would spend their vacationsie. leave their insular campuses
to come and spread terrorism?
The orchestra was founded "... when President Clinton was bringing Israel, under Prime Minister Barak, and Palestine, under President Arafat, to near-agreement and there seemed to be the possibility of an end-of-millennium settlement. But when Ariel Sharon came to power and the intifada re-erupted, all optimism fell away."
Was it a mistake for Joschka Fischer to visit him in April 2003, thus bolstering his position in the midst of an internal Palestinian power struggle? This may well be the case. But there is also an argument in favor of Fischer's meeting with Arafat namely, that Arafat's engagement, as pater patriae, remains an essential part of the peace process.
In any case, there must be greater transparency within the Palestinian executive branch. In the first months of 2002 the Israeli army discovered documents in Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah indicating that EU funds had been misappropriated to sponsor terrorist-related activities. Two journalists from the German weekly Die Zeit traced the flow of EU funds to the radical movements in a remarkable dossier ("Arafat bombs, Europe pays," June 6, 2002).
At that point the European Union should have suspended direct payments to the PA.
Although it is still important that we provide assistance, particularly humanitarian aid, to Palestine, transparancy is critical and examples of the detrimental impact of this type of support are many.
One particularly problematic example is Palestinian schoolbooks. These educational materials, partially funded by the EU, continue to preach hatred. In these texts the state of Israel does not even exist, nor do Israeli towns appear on their maps.
Israel's settlement policy is one of the biggest barriers to developing mutual trust and creating an atmosphere in which negotiations can take place. The destruction of Palestinian homes to make room for additional settler housing must be halted. The Israeli government must take action on, and be willing to consider difficult solutions to, the settlement question. Furthermore, Jerusalem should grant the Palestinians their own state. Palestinians must also regain the right to earn their living in Israel.
Mr. Lilla said: "Even sympathy for Palestinians has an oddly apolitical quality in Europe." Proposed solutions are little more sophisticated than imagining, as Mr. Lilla put it, "Hans Blix zipping around Palestine in his little truck."
today my father and brother went out to see what happening in the city, they say that it does look that the hits were very precise but when the missiles and bombs explode they wreck havoc in the neighborhood where they fall. Houses near al-salam palace(where the minister Sahaf took journalist) have had all their windows broke, doors blown in and in one case a roof has caved in. I guess that is what is called “collateral damage” and that makes it OK?