Thanks to Ernzy for some thoughtful feedback:

#1

Is it not at least somewhat rational to correlate the Hamas bombing with the killing of the Hamas activists last week? The IDF is feeding the same line they did after the bombing following the attempted Rantisi asassination. That the bombings were planned in advance and were not a result of the asassinations.

ernzy
  
#2

To Ernzy,

"somewhat rational"? The answer to your question is "yes".

But Israel has mostly sat idly while the PA (in open breach of their "roadmap" commitments" blah blah) permits Hamas etc. to pursue rearming/regrouping/missile testing in many places.

If after several weeks of doing nothing the IDF determined that one facility in Nablus must be eliminated, who is "responsible" for the breaking of the "hudna"?

It's a bit surreal that we're discussing it in terms of "who started it?". ie. since attacks on civilians are supposed to be crimes against humanity etc.

Also I think it's pretty well established that the post-Rantisi bombing was planned in advance.

Tal G.
  
  
#5

I was not referring to previous attacks. All attacks against civilians are despicable IMO.

Tal, I think it is a bit disingenuous to say the IDF has "done nothing" or "sat idly" until last week. It is well documented that about as many people have been arrested as were let go in the prisoner releases.

And while it is plainly stipulated in the roadmap that the PA disassemble the "terrorist infrastructure" we all know that a full assault against Hamas et. al will do more damage to Palestinian society and in effect Israeli society than benefit it. Speaking of which, the roadmap also clearly states that Israel cease form all settlement building immediately which it has not .. so let's be fair about this. Both sides, for a change, are doing as little as possible while demanding the world from the other side.

ernzy


  
#6
Aug 12 2003, 03:50 pm

>Tal, I think it is a bit disingenuous to say the IDF has "done nothing" or "sat idly" until last week. It is well documented that about as many
>people have been arrested as were let go in the prisoner releases.

The arrests were AFAIK not attempts to seriously damage the infrastructure of the "militant groups" (I can use sneer quotes myself). In at least some instances the arrests were to prevent planned attacks (and hence strengthened the "hudna").

>And while it is plainly stipulated in the roadmap that the PA disassemble the "terrorist infrastructure" we all know that a full assault against

>Hamas et. al will do more damage to Palestinian society and in effect Israeli society than benefit it.

That's the view more associated with the Clinton/EU approach to things than the "Bush speech July[?] 2002" approach. Those (like yourself) who keep saying "withdrawal first, peace later" need to address the quite justifiable question of the average Israeli:: "when is 'later'?"

The usual or implied answer to this question is always "after there's peace", which is a kind of circular answer. To mention "taking risks for peace" reminds Israelis of Clinton (and Arafat). The view that national rights are unconditional is popular only when applied to Palestinians. Noone advocates regional destabilization as a necessary price for Kurdish, Chechen, or Kashmir national rights.

> Speaking of which, the roadmap also
>clearly states that Israel cease form all settlement building immediately which it has not .. so let's be fair about this.

I've talked about the outposts issue below. Is there still any construction or expansion of Efrat, Ariel etc. going on? I don't think so. Granted that the decision to build 22 units inside the existing perimeter of a Gaza settlement (don't remember which one) was defended by a tortured reading of the "roadmap" clause. But the Palestinians (and hence the world) are much more concerned about prisoner releases and the security fence.

>Both sides, for a change, are doing as little as possible while demanding the world from the other side.

I disagree. Very significant Israeli actions include: IDF withdrawals from Gaza and Bethlehem, transfer of tax revenue, limitation of operations against "militant" infrastructure. Significant Palestinian actions include a serious reduction in the amount of anti-Israel incitement in the media.

Tal G